Cock-a-doodle-doo!!!
Just when things are really looking up one of the Cubs' stars has to pull a bonehead stunt right before spring training. The Sun Times reports that Aramis Ramirez has been quoted in a Dominican cockfighting magazine expressing his enthusiasm for the "sport."
Now I'm sure that there will be tons of people that point out that cockfighting is legal in the DR - I would like to remind those people that in some parts of the Middle East it is totally acceptable to stone to death women who have been unfaithful and the death penalty is carried out with a sword. In Afghanistan the national sport is called bozkashi - two teams of men on horseback are lined up on opposing sides of a field and a live goat is placed at midfield. Both teams charge to get the goat and the team with the biggest piece at the end of the game is the winner.
So I admit that many other cultures are more primitive and barbaric than ours. My sense is that, when you are paid millions of dollars a year to work in the United States then you should act in a way that won't dishonor your employer there. Now the Cubs are going to have animal rights activists and other socially-conscious people banging on their door because some idiot third baseman doesn't know how to conduct himself in public.
I'm hoping that the Cubs inform Ramirez that no players on their team will be allowed to participate in this gruesome public display, regardless of whether or not it's permitted in their home country. He should also be fined a very substantial sum in order to compensate the club for the moneys that they will have to spend to mitigate the damages he has caused.
As for Ramirez? Hopefully in his afterlife someone will strap razor blades to his elbows, shins and head and let him do battle with Pedro Martinez. Such an ending would only be fitting.




Wow
They tie razors to the hands and elbows of the cocks? Wow, I always just assume that each of them got a small knife of some sort with which to battle.
This is way worse than the fight scene in West Side Story.
Aramis Ramirez is a piece o' trash
I'm hoping the Cubs will trade that scumbag to someone for value. His actions will cause the Cubs agony all year - let's get Roberts and somebody else, shame Bedard isn't available.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it - Yogi Berra
In my opinion, I feel you're
In my opinion, I feel you're overreacting a bit. Obviously it's something you feel strongly about, but for right or wrong, we just have to accept that some people are raised differently than us. If A-Ram grew up thinking that it's okay, then we can't just expect him to conform to our morals when the issue arises. I hope Aramis is educated about it, and informed as to why it's wrong, but is he a piece of trash who should be traded because he supports cock fighting?
Using your other example, it certainly upsets and offends me that women are stoned to death, and raped, and abused in the Middle East. Unfortunately, it's a norm of their society, but fortunately, it's changing, if only slowly. I can only hope that it continues to change in the future, but it would be unrealistic to expect it to change overnight. To paraphrase Carrie Fischer, change only happens overnight in movies and television.
Besides, if anything, we should trade him because he's thugly and looks like Charles Barkley, not because he has different morals from us.
We are all free to have opinions
How is what Ramirez did different than what Vick did? True, Vick lied, at least Ramirez is being honest. But he's obviously a demented individual and he shows no contrition whatsoever.
I'd like to see that scumbag out of Chicago as soon as possible, he's not going to help the team with this. If I were a Major League pitcher with a pet and a three run lead I'd throw at his hands or wrists. I'll bet Ramirez is finished for the season by June, somebody will get him.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it - Yogi Berra
And herein lies the big
And herein lies the big difference. Mark, if you were raised from day one believing that it's okay to, I dunno, throw rocks at birds, that doesn't make you a demented individual, although I'm sure that the rest of society would be happy to tell you how wrong you are for being okay with chucking rocks at birds.
Let's look at this without bias. About a week ago, it was revealed that Pedro Martinez directly participated in a cock fight. Where are the headlines today? Where's the scrutiny? Has Pedro been dogged about this? Have the animal rights groups launched a crusade against him? It's pretty much blown over in the wind of Roger Clemens and his apparent abuse of HGH.
I do not believe that Ramirez is a "demented individual," much as I believe that people who believe in magic underwear aren't demented, much as I believe that people who pierce their bodies repeatedly with extremely sharp implements aren't demented, much as I believe that people who intentionally bind their children's feet at a young age aren't demented.
On the other hand, I'll never participate in a cock fight. I won't even ever fire a weapon at an animal. I believe that people should responsibly follow the law. I believe that if Ramirez participated in a cock fight in the States, he should be punished if the law dictates that. But should he be traded from the team for that? Seriously?
Common, Folks, Get Real!
I don't necessarily think fowl have the same status as dogs! No, we they may feel some pain, but really folks, aren't we talking about another "politically correct" position. Should we fine National Geographic when they place two apposite ant colonies next to each other to film the ant war? So birds are raised to fight and kill each other, so what?
What will the yellow bellied, liberal bed-wetting, politically correct, morons think of next. I suppose to most liberals cock-fighting is much more brutal than human abortions. That is a woman's choice, right?
Save the cock, kill the little human!
Dude, maintain
You don't have to be "yellow bellied" etc. etc. to think something like cock fighting is wrong. People on either side have the right to their opinion.
I agree with Mark that cock fighting is wrong. I just disagree on two counts ...
1. People from different cultures shouldn't be judged based on our view of what is morally right (perhaps the only universal truth is that there is no such thing as a universal truth)
2. We cannot prosecute or even punish an individual for committing an illegal act if it is legal where he/she is doing it.
I'm definitely going to have to agree with Kurt
Obviously I don't support cock fighting (the cock being a proud and noble creature), but I think you are definitely taking the wrong slant here.
I'm not a moral relativist, so I do believe that cock fighting is wrong even if other cultures defend it. But to say that someone is demented because they see nothing wrong in a sport that they've been told is not wrong throughout their childhood...that's not demented and it's not the person's fault.
For example, what if a child was born in Cardinal country. They spent their entire life being told that it was okay to root for the Cardinals and support Albert Pujols. Do you think they'll appreciate the error of their ways just because they move to Chicago.
Maybe a more intelligent approach would be to educate Aramis as to why he is wrong as opposed to trading him in a fit of righteous indignation. Has anyone ever tried to convince him that cock fighting is wrong? Shouldn't he be given a chance before he is rejected?
Of course, there's definitely nothing funny about any of this. No one could ever make a cock-related joke. No sir, no inlet for humor there.
Wait, did you know that cock is another name for a rooster? Did everyone know this but me? This changes everything.
Wake Up
So you think we are making a big thing out of nothing - in case you haven't noticed people bring their strange habits and try to incorporate them into this society. Have you heard of the MP13 Gangs that are now living here in the US in large numbers - guess what - they are part of the culture in Central America and now they have become the biggest headache of ICE. Were you aware that female genital mutilation also takes place in this country thanks to people who "embrace" that part of their culture. Think before you open your mouth - one of your family members may one day become the victim of a serial killer who by the started his career at an abuser of animals.
well....
he could either be a fan of cockfighting or a steriods abuser, since that's what baseball is seeming to boil down to at times. i'd pick the fights over the next clemens-wannabe.... but that's just my opinion.
I've been to one in Haiti,
I've been to one in Haiti, It was pretty cool, and we all had chicken and rice afterwards. People here should mind their own business if they don't like what they hear. Just because we Americans have more money we think our culture is better. It's not it just works best here.
heh heh you guys said...
So I'm also in the "not that outraged" category here. Let's be clear, the difference between what Vick did and what Ramirez does, is legal in nature. Dog fighting is illegal where Vick did it, so's gambling on it, so's transporting the dogs across state lines etc. So let's not make that comparison.
Sure, you can be opposed to cock fighting, but come on, it's a real asshole thing to do to take an individual that's a product of his/her cultural and legal environment to task for participating in something like this. Are there people with such a strong moral compass that they transcend those contexts and decide cock fighting is wrong? Probably. Is it reasonable to expect that of everyone? No. Especially not someone who has been pulled aside and groomed to be a baseball player since they were 12 years old.
I think all this outrage is misdirected. Should MLB and the Cubs wield their influence to change cock fighting? I don't see why not, I suspect the coverage this subject has gotten will result in just that, clearly for some people it's a pretty big issue and a potential black eye for those organizations. However, it's unreasonable to expect players as individuals to independently arrive at conclusions that differ from the norms of their places of origin. Frankly, to expect otherwise is demonstrative of a feeling of moral superiority that I think baseball, and the world can do without.
who
gives a sh!t!!!!! instead of criticizing his culture...why dont we talk about our own.....why do we always gotta find some dirt to smear someone's rep with.....and seriously this is much ado about nothing....WHO CARES??!?!
Man up Nancy
People find pleasure in seeing things fight for their lives. That's life. Football, hockey and other forms of competition are a microcosm of the fight for life.
It's a chicken people.
cock a doodle-doo...joke
as a cub fan, i'll say it first. this is just a bad joke in the making. sox suck!
Aramis vs. Perdue
OK...not to generalize, but I think deep down we all believe cockfighting is wrong on varying levels.
However, which is worse? Aramis going to a cockfight and thinking it's cool and doesn't see what the big deal is? Or is the Perdue chicken empire worse for pumping their product with hormones for mass production so you can eat a plumper bird?
Let's just put this all into perspective. A kid from the Dominican Republic is raised in a culture not thinking twice to the 'wrongness' of cockfighting. However, we allow our own corporations to be even more inhumane in the way we mass produce chicken for our consumption.
Oh, and Vick is a complete dirtbag because he was connected with raising dogs to fight. Whereas, these ball players were spectators of an event. Huge difference.
I wonder how many Cubs or other athletes for that matter have smoked pot or ordered a hooker? Should they all be traded or barred from playing? What they did was illegal and to many - immoral.
The idea of trading Ramirez is ridiculous. Mostly cuz that assures Cedeno a spot on the roster...uggh
If I was a cock
I would definitely rather live my life eating and running around only to end in a ring fighting for my life. At least then I would have some control over how I go, and be given a shot at living longer. A cock in our culture gets pumped full of chemicals and is forced to live in a 2 foot long and one foot wide cage while hovering a couple inches over piles of their own crap until they are deemed big enough to kill and eat. You want to talk cruelty, at least the chickens there get some quality of life before being killed by each other. I am not condoning their actions, but given the choice that life would be much more appealing to me. I think some people here are much too quick to turn a blind eye on what goes on right here in our country. I grew up on a farm and we let our chickens run, but in the end all they did was get fat and get killed. The old way of killing chickens by the way is grabbing them by the head and swinging them around your head like a rock in a sling until the weight of their body causes the main part of the chicken to seperate from the head at the neck. I have seen it done. By the way, the chicken really does get up and run around with its head cut off, until it runs into something and falls over which takes several seconds. Again I would take the fighting death over having my head ripped or cut off any day. So my point is this, what they do is wrong, but what we do is inhumane and wrong also. Let him embrace his culture, and if he chooses to side with us then great, but don't tell him what he can and cannot believe is right just because he plays, very well, for a team that you love.
http://chicagosports.chicagot
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-080214-m...
Even the nameless one - he whose name we will not utter on this site because we think he's such an idiot - takes the same stance as most of us here.
Kurt...
are you trying to indicate that we must be wrong because we agree with The Unnamed One? I think you just swung me to Mark's side.
When did we start expecting baseball players to rise above? Few of them have more than a high school education. Hell, almost all of them hunt. We give Wade Boggs a pass for killing cool animals like hippos and lions and get upset at the guy who watches cocks tangle? That seems inconsistent to me.
Baseball players are generally idiots who run around for our amusement. Expecting anything more is setting yourself up for disappointment.
wow
Good work, Mark. I'm honestly not sure I believe you really care about cock fighting. I do believe that you stirred up some controversy so the converstaion would pick up on the site. Good work.
This is a message of Big Brother.
Well here's my last say
Any guy who gets his jollies watching two roosters cut themselves to death has serious issues. I'd put Ramirez in this category, he is obviously not of sound mind.
Aramis has a long-term contract - the Cubs are for sale. His stupidity has lowered the presumptive value that the team will net - IMO his salary should be adjusted accordingly.
If Ramirez had a brain he'd be dangerous; this guy is just an idiot third baseman that has more dollars than sense. AND he has obvious mental issues. Let's get his tuckus out of Chicago and get a guy that can produce and not dishonor his team. Were I to take a kid to Wrigley I'd point at Ramirez and say: "See that guy? He's a punk. Don't be like him."
If you come to a fork in the road, take it - Yogi Berra
Realistically, A-Ram could
Realistically, A-Ram could be caught with a truck full of HGH and it wouldn't effect the value of the Cubs. He certainly hasn't effected the team's value by being raised in a country with different cultural standards than our own.
Obviously animal cruelty is an important issue to you, Mark, but I would think that the fact that more than one person thinks you might be working our readers into a shoot right now might be a pretty solid indication that not everybody - and probably not even the majority of people - share your point of view. (Which is fine ... the majority is very often wrong in life.)
If I were a betting man, I would be willing to put serious money on my belief that this will be all but forgotten before the season has started. I'd even go as far as to say that the majority of fans will have forgotten it come the start of spring play.
Anyway, Mark, did you know that there's a culture in the world right now in which 70% of its male adult population has committed murder? This culture, which lives in New Zealand, if I recall correctly, has the belief that people get sick and die only because other people have placed curses on them. When somebody in that culture dies, if the ghost implicates somebody who is living (usually through a dream or vision of some kind), then the accused must perform a culinary act which is the equivalent of cooking a souffle the size of a bathtub. They go into it knowing that it's an impossible task, and they believe that the success or failure of the accused is dependent on help from the spirit of the recently departed. And if they fail, they are executed. (See "Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jensen for the full story.)
The point is, there are cultures out there that are just plain whack when compared with our own ... and, you know what? Our own culture is just as ridiculous if you view it without bias. I mean seriously, we do some insane things on a daily basis. For just one example, people here have already cited inhumane stories of how we raise and slaughter our livestock.
Now, if we can forgive ourselves for the craziness of our own culture, and if we can resist raising an army to pacify that bizarre Culture of Murderers, then I think we have to be fair and accepting of the fact that there are players on our favorite baseball team who come from countries that do things like:
*Promote that women should commit suicide if raped in order to restore honor to their family
*Hack off pieces of their genitalia in order to display their faith in God
*Raise roosters to fight each other, often to the death
*Spend incredible amounts of money on purchasing sex from beautiful-but-exploited women
*and so very much more.
If we can't be tolerant of our inherent differences, then we will never be able to accept our common ground. Honestly. I will film me eating my own poo if Aramis is in the doghouse come April over this. Nobody will remember. The Cubs will not be protested by PETA - I mean, his comments aren't even being picked up nationally. The value of the team will not decrease because they have players from different countries with different cultural mores and folkways. So, although it's made for some good debate, I encourage that we let it go. This team is going to go far this year ... and a lot of that distance will be on the back of one Aramis Ramirez. I for one will cheer him on ... even if I wouldn't trust him with my pet rooster.
and my reply
Is everything in life this rigid or black and white for you? The way I see it is the best we can do is what seems right at the time basd upon what we know at the time. What he is doing is what seems right to him based upon his culture and values. I can't fault that. I can hope that his views can be changed. So given all that, I can't pass such harsh judgement. This should be a learning moment, not a run-him-out-of-town moment.
Oh, and don't call this guy a punk without taking the time to teach your ficticious child a lesson rather than just call someone names.
I'm left with the imprssion you've never learned anything, changed an opinion, or simply just grown and become a better person. Maybe you've always been a superior human being with impeccable judgement. Good for you.
By the way, I wish I could have been a ballplayer too, but I'm not bitter about it or about the state of the game.
This is a message of Big Brother.
In Thailand...
There's plenty of child prostitutes. You can go over there and rent plenty of them and you'll have no problem with the authorities. Does that mean it's okay for Cubs players to go to Thailand and engage in this activity? If not, where do you draw the line?
If you come to a fork in the road, take it - Yogi Berra
Did anyone point out...
that the life of a fighting rooster is much less cruel than that of your everyday poultry chicken?
Love your Comments
Thank you Mark for the great comments. You are so very right. I hope this bimbo (and all the people who support him) return in their future lives as a little bitty tiny winny cock!
Alicia Martinez